Episode 15: If Not Now...When?: Turn No Into Yes With Sharon Bryson
Achieving something great starts with small steps. In this episode, Amy Vetter interviews Sharon Bryson, the CEO of North Carolina Association of CPAs (NCACPA) about her journey from being a teacher to a 35-year career with the NCACPA. Turn your no into a yes as Sharon discusses the learning she has had along the way as a leader, creating relationships with members, and the outside advice she has looked to help her in succeeding in the role she is in today.
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If Not Now...When?: Turn No Into Yes With Sharon Bryson
I interviewed Sharon Bryson, CEO of the North Carolina Association of CPAs. Sharon works closely with the board of directors and the executive committee to help set the direction of the association. In addition to working with the North Carolina CPA Taxation Committee, she also represents the membership with the North Carolina State Board of CPA Examiners, the North Carolina Department of Revenue, the North Carolina General Assembly and various other advocacy entities. She is the past President of the Association Executives in North Carolina and serves as a member of the AICPA, National Commission on Diversity and Inclusion, the North Carolina State Master of Accounting Advisory Board, the Louisburg College Board of Trustees, the ECU Accounting Advisory Board and the ECU College of Business Advisory Board.
In her spare time, she enjoys volunteer work focusing on adoption. She's received both her undergraduate and graduate degrees from the University of North Carolina and is an avid Tar Heel fan. During my interview with Sharon, we talked about her journey from being a teacher to her 35-year career with the North Carolina Association of CPAs. We discussed the learning that she has had along the way as a leader by creating relationships with members and the outside advice she has looked to help her in succeeding in the role she is in now.
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I'm here at the North Carolina CPA Society Professional Women's Conference. I'm here with the CEO of the North Carolina Society. Would you like to give a little background on yourself?
My name is Sharon Bryson. I'm the CEO of NCACPA and I've been with the organization for many years in a variety of roles. Obviously, I'm happy doing what I'm doing because I have stayed.
It is great to have you on, especially to become a woman CEO in the space at the time that you did is very inspiring as well. I want to hear your journey. I'd love to know starting backward, what did you want to be when you grew up?
I wanted to be a teacher. I grew up in a family of educators. My father was my high school principal. My mother was a teacher. My grandmother was a teacher. It was always about lifelong learning in our household. At one point, I remember having a conversation with my mom about that and she said, “There are many professions you can engage in and you can be a teacher. It can be the traditional route or you can look at other possibilities.” That's what I did.
What did you go to school for?
My undergraduate degree was in Communications. My graduate degree was in Educational Media and Instructional Design. My first job was designing patient education materials for dialysis patients. That was a very intense experience, but one that I enjoyed a great deal.
How did you end up going from that to joining the North Carolina CPA Society?
I left the hospital unit because I found myself taking those situations home with me. It was difficult. I've gone to work for a little while in Adult Education night school in Wake County community schools in North Carolina. I enjoyed that and I did some part-time work at a television station in Raleigh, WRAL. I enjoyed that as well but still, things haven’t clicked. I think it was that educational piece. My college roommate called me and said, “There's a position open at the North Carolina Association of CPAs in membership and public relations. You might want to take a look at it.” The reason she knew about that is that she owned a video production company and had done some work for NCACPA. It was a luck of the draw. I thought, “I'll apply for this.” I was interviewed and was hired and the rest is history.
It is a membership. Were you using your educational background in order to sell? At the end of the day, that is a sales job.
There was a lot of education that needed to go on about what the association did because I realized very quickly that most of our members didn't know. It was absolutely educational in nature. I also realized that early in my career, that we could design all kinds of materials but there was nothing more effective than face to face communication.
Even starting out, you hadn't been part of the CPA associations or be around accountants. What were you thinking about accountants that maybe started changing your mind or had different observations later?
When I started there, I didn't think I would be there long because I didn't find the relationship aspect of it to be as positive as I wanted it to be. My father, in his infinite wisdom said, “If I know anything about you, Sharon, you're a people person. You may be working around with curmudgeons at this point, who don't think you know a lot about the profession. What they don't know is that you are a people person and that's the heart and soul of an association.” It's typically the heart and soul of any business for that matter. I was six months into it at this point and he said, “I'm going to suggest you give it a year. Your mom and I don't want you to be unhappy, but give that some thought.” Thankfully, I took that advice and he was absolutely right. I started developing relationships. I wasn't waiting for it to happen. I took the initiative to do that. By the end of that twelve months, I thought, “These are great people. They have such passion for what they do.” I care about them. I care about their issues. That was the beginning of me realizing that association management was a wonderful profession.
What you're talking about is an example of mindfulness practices because a lot of times, we have perceived opinions or we were immediately impacted by someone's outward way on how they communicate or behave. When we don't get present, we pull out and say, “Let me have compassion for what they're saying and what they're doing.” It starts changing the conversation and that was one thing. The second thing you said is important because a lot of times we assume we don't like something and we don't step back and go, “How can I use my best skills at this?” That's cool that your father was able to help shift that perspective and your mom shifted your perspective too by saying learning's everything. What happened after that?
The longer I was there, the more I enjoyed it. That membership in a public relations position then morphed into Director of Communications, which I thoroughly enjoyed. I was asked to be the Director of Education. That was an area that I knew not so much about but I've turned it down. They came back to me and asked me again. I thought, “I need to give this a go.” At that point, I had decided that association management was for me. It gave me an opportunity to learn a whole new phase. I learned how to run an educational program. I was running a small business with a beginning, middle and end to all of our initiatives. That was probably the most significant training ground for me. Frankly, it was also when I learned how to negotiate because you're working with vendors and with speakers and the power of negotiation is important.
There were times when that financial piece, I saw aspects of people that I didn't find attractive. I learned how to draw that line in the sand and I've stood my ground and I wanted to be treated like a professional. I certainly wanted to reciprocate. That was a big training ground for me. I enjoyed that very much. We had a very successful run and our educational program is still known for its very high quality. After a number of years in that role, I was asked to become the COO, Chief Operating Officer. I enjoyed that a great deal. The CEO role was about several years ago when I was asked to serve in that role. I've been incredibly fortunate to have many different opportunities in an organization that I love.
You made a comment that you turned down the role first. Was there someone looking out for you or telling you, “Go for it?” What was happening during that time that made you take the leap? Who convinced you to take the leap?
I was having dinner with one of my good friends. I was telling her the story and she said, “Have you thought that through?” I said, “What do you mean?” She said, “Why did you say no?” I said, “I'm not sure I'm up for it. I'm not sure I want to learn something at this point from beginning to end.” She said, “If not now, when would be a better time?”
That's a great question.
I had no answer. She’s the reason that I turn no into yes.
That's very powerful.
I've thought about that question many times since. I'm not good at saying no, but it's something that question helped me get rid of the filters that I was creating.
It's true for a lot of women that if we don't feel like we hit all the checkmarks of what the job entails, then we don't go for it rather than taking the opportunity when it's right there to help advance us. We realized that everybody that takes the next job is learning in that job.
I have found that the story has been impactful when I talk to people on our team who are starting a new role. At that point in my life, I did not want to engage in that vulnerability. I didn't have the self-confidence to say, “I don't know anything about this, but I knew I could learn.”
Do you say that now if you don't know something?
If I don't know something, I do push myself because it's part of the journey.
The transition from being a subject matter expert as you go into these different roles and then to a leadership role. You still have to be an expert in what you do but once you're a leader, it becomes about the team. What had to change in your style of the way you viewed work once you got into even the COO role?
I did not learn any of those lessons the hard way but indeed, I did. The most impactful thing for me is that I have always thought I was a good listener. Through some 360-degree feedback, when I became the CEO, I learned that I had a blind spot there. Instead of engaging and active listening, I would listen and then I would become empathetic. As a result of that, I would start saying, “I've had that experience.” I would share my experience. I learned that's not the thing to do. My role is to listen only. That certainly doesn't mean that I don't provide feedback. I answer questions but leadership is largely about listening.
I agree because a lot of times people come to you with their problems. You're trying to solve it and they're like, “That won't work.” Then you realized, “They just wanted to tell you.” They didn't want you to solve it. They just wanted to get it off their chest and they felt better that someone heard them.
I've certainly not perfected the art of active listening, but I work on that every day. I also believe in the power of questions because we learned so much about ourselves and about each other through that form of communication.
How do you do that?
When I am listening to someone and I have something to say, instead of coming out with a number of declarative statements, I'm trying to ask questions. That enables me to learn. It also enables the person I'm talking to, the person that I'm listening to say more, which is nine times out of ten what they really need. That's true for our team members. It's also true for the members of our association. I was talking to a member who said, “I appreciate you listening to me because I've come to my own solution.” If I can do that for someone and provide certain periodic input because they have questions for me too. That's been very effective. It's all I care about. I'm not lathered up about generally accepted accounting principles, but I care about what they care about. I want to be authentic.
It's human, no matter what your profession. You had said before that you have trouble because you do say yes too much. Where do you notice that the most and how have you tried to work on that?
You started talking about another possibility and I thought, “That's not going to materialize.” It's a learning process for me. For the last couple of years, I’m working with an executive coach. This is an area where she is mandating that when I say yes to something new, she wants to know what's coming off the list. That may sound simple, but it's like a closet. I'm much more intentional now about what I say yes to. I do try to abandon something.
How does that make you feel?
Turning No Into Yes: The power of negotiation is important when running programs and businesses.
It is difficult in the interim until I get to the point where I've been able to say no and explain why and mean it. When I get to that finish line, I feel good. I remind myself that if something doesn't leave the plate, nothing else can be added. It goes back to that lifelong learning piece. I have to make room. I haven't perfected it.
It's hard because you don't want to disappoint people. As a CEO, it’s a people-pleasing position, as well as hard decision making, but from a human perspective it's hard. When you're having to say no, you're taking it from a personal standpoint. Sometimes we have to realize that the other person might not be taking it as personally as we're internalizing it. We want to be everything.
I was saying no to someone and they said, “You don't need to be at these meetings. You can be there when I'll let you know that it's imperative.” I said, “That doesn't work for me. I'm either all in or not.” I did stick to my guns on that one, but I also think that it's very important to role model the word no. If you don't, you're not illustrating to your team members that they need to know it's okay to say no to me. I'm trying to get much better at that.
It's definitely a hard thing to work through. Like any kind of change, you have to be intentionally practicing it and knowing when you get off. It's important also that you brought up that you meet with an executive coach. A lot of people can look at that as a weakness. It is like, “I wouldn't go to a therapist.” Having that third party that can help you see things that you're not seeing or like a workout coach is saying, “Did you stay on your no diet?”
I was doing a presentation for the Dental Society in North Carolina and I mentioned my coach. Not by name, but I've told them that I was working with one. I received an email from a woman in the audience who said, “I'm struggling with some things from a business perspective. Would you be willing to share more about your experience with me?” I appreciated that question and I was happy to pass along because we all need somebody in our corner. It is not that she tells me what I want to hear because that's not the point.
I think being a CEO is a lonely position.
I hate clichés.
You have to make hard decisions. A lot of times, people don't understand all the factors that went into making a decision, even if you tried to explain it, they're not sitting in your shoes trying to make that decision. Having someone you can talk to versus putting that on somebody else that works with you is an important thing.
We have amazing volunteer leaders. Our executive committee and our board members are always available to listen to me to ask questions to get input in specific areas. They stay in the strategic lane as opposed to the operational lane and that's a good delegation of responsibilities.
Do you create a personal board where there are certain people that go to over and over that helps you with thinking through decisions like that?
It certainly depends on the subject matter. In my 35-year career, there's absolutely no doubt that some of our volunteer leaders have become mentors for me. I respect their professionalism to the highest level. That's been a major benefit to me.
How do you think being a woman in this role has affected the good and bad of you in taking on the position and as you interact with people?
As a result of being in the organization for so long, I have felt that I was putting unnecessary pressure on myself because of my gender. I say unnecessary because that is absolutely the truth. I don't have anything that I feel like I need to prove because of my gender. I certainly needed to prove when I became the CEO that I would give it everything I had. That's been true with every role that I've had on the association. I often find myself to be the minority in the room from a gender perspective. I may notice that, but I don't feel like that changes my communication style. I don't feel like I haven't been given opportunities because I am a female. I think that there have been a couple of occasions when the expectations might have been different and I didn't care for that. I've had some conversations along those lines in a very professional way.
How did you go about that? I think it's important for women to know how to handle that in the right way.
I was direct. I ask questions because I wanted to make sure that I was dealing with the facts at hand. That went well because the individual I was speaking with said, “I'm going to shoot straight with you.” We got to the bottom of the issue. He ended up thanking me for sticking to my guns and asking questions as opposed to his story, but I also made my point. I had rehearsed. I was prepared. I feel like that was extremely important. I think preparation, I took emotionalism out of it. I gave myself some time to get from where I was to and where I needed to be and it went well.
We have to remember, we don't have to respond right away.
Which is my tendency.
You have to practice it. You're not going to respond right away. You take the information and figure out what to do with it. When you're at these women's conferences, I hear that complaint over and over. They think I'm complaining. If I act the same way as them, they look at me as different. It's maneuvering and trying different ways to approach a situation. Not every person is not going to work with, but an important piece you said was to practice it. Understand how you want that conversation. Picture it and visualize it before you go into it.
I heard one of our team members say, we were talking about practicing feedback in our office through SBI model or Subject Behavior Impact model. This team member was saying, “In schools now, instead of teaching kids that practice makes perfect, they are teaching them practice makes progress.” I love that because it is taking that perfectionist word and I think it’s very healthy. Practice is extremely important. One of the things that led me to make sure that I said what I needed to say, this happened a number of years ago, I was driving home from work. I'd had a situation. I was having a conversation with the person in my car. That person wasn't in the car. I thought, “This is crazy. You can't take this home.”
You're internalizing, which creates stress.
I've never done that since. I don't remember a time in my professional life or my personal life for that matter when a conversation didn't make it better.
I like to end with some rapid-fire questions. You pick a category. It’s either family, friends, spiritual, health or money.
I choose health.
What are the things or actions that you don't have that you want with your health?
A more regular exercise routine.
Is there a type of exercise you like?
I love Pilates. That's probably my favorite thing.
What are the things or actions that you do have and you want to keep it?
In the subject of health, when I was sixteen years old, I didn't think this was a blessing, but it's been a blessing in disguise. It's the regiment that I lived for decades as an insulin-dependent diabetic. What I have in that area that I want to keep again in the health world is my regimen, my routine. I have to keep it.
That’s turning something that's tied into the benefits that it's giving you in your life.
Routine's not bad.
What are the things or actions that you don't have that you don't want with your health?
I don't want to cheat. I don't want to have that piece of candy.
Is there anything that you want to make sure people leave with your message or about the North Carolina CPA Society as we wrap up this conversation?
Turning No Into Yes: Be more intentional about what you say “yes” to.
Being here at the Professional Women's Conference, I'm grateful to represent the profession I represent. I'm grateful to represent the people that I do. The energy here, you can feel it. You can touch it. I'm happy to be part of an organization that has that vibe.
That team and you have created it.
I'm surrounded by incredible people in the office. When I come out and see the members, it's always a breath of fresh air. It feeds me.
Thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.
It is my pleasure. Thank you.
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For our Mindful Moment Segment, where we can take a moment to step back and pause and think back on the conversation that you read with Sharon. I'll give you a few learnings that I had along the way. I think one of the biggest learnings is no matter what technology you put in place, what systems you put in place and what business processes you've put in place, as Sharon discussed, the most important thing is creating those face-to-face relationships however you do it. It could be virtually. It could be in person. Figuring out in all of our roles, how do we create that personal connection? When we create that personal connection, it shifts how we feel about the work that we do.
She talked about how originally in her job with the North Carolina CPA Society that she wasn't connecting with it until she took that moment to step back and realize that if she makes the effort, if she makes that shift in taking the time to get to know the people that she's serving, that all of a sudden her work had more meaning for her. We can take that into any job that we do. A lot of times, we think about our job in a silo and the work that we're doing as an individual piece of work. How do we go and reach out to the rest of the organization or reach out to customers and make those connections so that our work has a broader meaning? It's not just the day-to-day that we do.
Another area that we talked about was where she said no to a position that she didn't have the skills to do when the education role came up. Her reflection on the saying no, where she didn't feel like pushing herself or learning a new thing at that point in her career. What she realized, from her friend who gave her that epiphany, is that if you don't do it now, then what is the alternative? What do you want to do with your future and answering that? A lot of times, we think about the moment, but we don't necessarily give ourselves a broader definition of why we did what we did and to internalize it so that we can figure out, “Does it make sense?” That one sentence that her friend said to her, “If not now, when would be a better time,” had her step back and pause and think about, “This position might not come up again. If I don't take advantage of it, then I could lose out.” We talked about this because when we take on new positions, a lot of times we expect to have that checklist and automatically be ready for that next new position. If we've never done a job before, we shouldn't expect to be perfect at walking into it.
What we do need to think about is, “How do we go about learning that role? How are we open to letting people know that we may not know what we're doing and we need their help along the way to learn the process?” As we've taken in those observations, we can start better designing what the future of that role would look like with you in it. It doesn't mean it has to look exactly like the last person. We also talked about her shift in moving from an expert to a people leader and how she has worked to become a better listener. This is important because we can think that we are good listeners. As she said, she felt she was a good listener, but what she realized was she was interrupting too many times or giving her story back to another person. When we're truly listening, we are not interjecting our own story or our point of view that we are open and observing that person in their individuality. Being completely present for what they need at that moment and having compassion for them as we have that conversation.
How do we practice active listening? It's a skill. We need to practice it and make sure that we achieve what we wanted to achieve out of that conversation and not make declarative statements. Instead, we want to encourage them to keep talking more and to say more. A lot of times, just by them talking, they get out what they need. You also learn more about their thought process, their emotions and feelings. You can step back from that conversation and then decide what may be the right step forward.
She also talked about going to an executive coach. This is important because a lot of times executive coaches may be used in the wrong way in organizations because it could be used as a correctional thing. Rather than looked at as in any role that we're in, sometimes we need that independent third party to give us an independent view on our stories because we get wrapped up in the corporate culture. It's important for someone when we're telling those stories to question and to see if there was another way we could have gone about it. One of the things that she's realized about herself is she says yes too much. I think that practice that she brought up of, “When you say yes, what will you say no to?” That you don't keep filling your plate and then letting it overflow because it creates stress internally and you're probably not putting out the energy that you want to create for the people around you. Instead, you are stressed out and that's going to show up in other ways when you're communicating with people.
The third big point of this was talking about having difficult conversations. A couple of great tips that she had was about making sure you visualize and practice what you want to say before you go into that meeting so that you come in prepared and can't be taken off guard. Obviously, you can't prepare for every nuance that might happen, but how do you take the emotion out of it and come back to that active listening with the other person and try to hear what their perspective is? Even if you don't agree with it. This is hard, but how do we take the information that they are providing us and then synthesize it and not necessarily give an answer right away?
With these great tips, it's important for us to realize that we might get promoted based on our expertise, but we're not always given the right kind of coaching to become a people leader and practice in doing it as well. Think about as you leave this show, what could you do, whether you're a leader or coworker, to think about how do you start improving some of those communication skills? What kind of learning could you commit to this year so that you can change the energy that you are putting out to the people around you and create the kind of experience that you want to create?
Important Links:
@NCACPA on Instagram
About Sharon Bryson
As CEO of the NC Association of CPAs, Sharon Bryson works closely with the Board of Directors and the Executive Committee to help set the direction of the Association. In addition to working with the NCACPA Taxation Committee, she also represents the membership with the NC State Board of CPA Examiners, the NC Department of Revenue, the North Carolina General Assembly, and various other advocacy entities. Sharon is a Past President of the Association Executives of North Carolina, and currently serves as a member of the AICPA National Commission on Diversity & Inclusion, the NC State Master of Accounting Advisory Board, the Louisburg College Board of Trustees, the ECU Accounting Advisory Board, and the ECU College of Business Advisory Board. In her spare time, she enjoys volunteer work focusing on adoption. Sharon received both her undergraduate and graduate degrees from the University of North Carolina and is an avid Tar Heel fan!
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